One should always finish what one starts. So, presented before you is a bit more Platonic conversation. Here is the rest of the argument in all its silliness! I say “silliness” because it is neither good nor sensical, it just is what it is: boredom at its finest. Take heed lest you too fall into the absurd abyss of endless shadows upon a cave wall.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
CONVERSATION: On Republic*
DATE: 12\/21\/2009
DURATION: 9:34:26 PM to 11:43:52 PM PST<\/p>\n\n\n\n
ALIZARIN: And now I\u2019m a liar too! CAPRI: You\u2019re still bitter? *Could not be edited for complete clarity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Disclaimer:<\/strong> This conversation is not a verbatim transcript of a discussion. The text in this document records the notes and recollections of the writers to the best of their ability as they attempted to systematically strip away the multifaceted nature of reality. It’s sole purpose is to memorialize the conversation in written form as a conversation that may have taken place.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" A continuation of my series on better knowing the Norton Anthology of Literary Criticism. This entry focuses on Plato’s The Republic.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":434,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[21,5],"tags":[38,50,58,59,56],"class_list":["post-85","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-reading-journal","category-musings","tag-critical-theory","tag-dialogue","tag-literary-criticism","tag-plato","tag-rhetoric"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/10\/cover_art_platonic2.jpg","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p9U72D-1n","jetpack-related-posts":[],"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/85","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=85"}],"version-history":[{"count":15,"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/85\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":438,"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/85\/revisions\/438"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/434"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=85"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=85"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.cjlindner.com\/personal\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=85"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
CAPRI: Come again???
ALIZARIN: Oh and I know nothing of value!
CAPRI: What are you talking about?
ALIZARIN: Oh the nerve of that man!
CAPRI: Which man?!?
ALIZARIN: Plato.
CAPRI: You\u2019re still bitter?
ALIZARIN: Well now he wants to banish me. I have a right to be bitter!
CAPRI: Why does he want to banish you?
ALIZARIN: Remember the great chain for craziness?
CAPRI: The one from before?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: K.
ALIZARIN: As a representer of a representer anything I write deforms people’s minds and takes them further from the truth.
CAPRI: DNC.
ALIZARIN: A painter or a poet can only make a copy of a copy and there is no truth in their work.
CAPRI: Well you\u2019re not really a poet or a painter are you?
ALIZARIN: I CAN PAINT!
CAPRI: Ok, so you can paint, BUT you do that as a hobby. What does this have to do with you being a critic?
ALIZARIN: Don\u2019t you see?!?
CAPRI: No. Enlighten me.
ALIZARIN: A critic is even further removed!
CAPRI: Huh?
ALIZARIN: Pretend you have one of Picasso\u2019s paintings.
CAPRI: Now you do sound crazy.
ALIZARIN: I AM NOT!
CAPRI: Ok. Ok, just let go of the shift key.
ALIZARIN: fine.
CAPRI: Good, so I have a Picasso. What Picasso do I have?
ALIZARIN: It doesn\u2019t matter.
CAPRI: Well how am I suppose to imagine this if I don\u2019t know what to imagine?
ALIZARIN: Your as irritating as he <\/em>is sometimes.
CAPRI: I try \ud83d\ude09
ALIZARIN: Ok so you have Picasso\u2019s Dove With Green Peas.
CAPRI: I do not. I\u2019m not a thief.
ALIZARIN: What?
CAPRI: Don\u2019t you read the news?
ALIZARIN: Does it look like I have time to do that?
CAPRI: That painting was stolen.
ALIZARIN: Oh. Well how do I know you don\u2019t have it?
CAPRI: Because I\u2019ve never been to Paris.
ALIZARIN: How do I know that?
CAPRI: Are we questioning Plato here or me?
ALIZARIN: Plato.
CAPRI: Well I have my Picasso. Now what?
ALIZARIN: You make a million copies.
CAPRI: So now I\u2019m an art forger as well?
ALIZARIN: Sure, why not.
CAPRI: Ok…this is your imagination. I am a forger and make a million copies.
ALIZARIN: And someone buys a copy.
CAPRI: For how much?
ALIZARIN: I don\u2019t know, whatever you want for it.
CAPRI: Sounds like a plan, I don\u2019t know what I would do with a million of anything anyways.
ALIZARIN: Can we focus here!
CAPRI: K
ALIZARIN: And that person that bought your copy is also a forger and thinks your copy is the original.
CAPRI: K. Sucks to be him.
ALIZARIN: How do you know it is a him?
CAPRI: I don\u2019t, I\u2019m just saying…besides its my imagination!
ALIZARIN: Ok. So HE makes a million copies of your copy.
CAPRI: Alright.
ALIZARIN: So which copy is closer to the truth?
CAPRI: Mine.
ALIZARIN: There you go. Socrates claimed the further you get away from an original the less authentic it is because your not creating the actual painting but the appearance of the painting.
CAPRI: Wait a minute.
ALIZARIN: What?
CAPRI: We were talking about Plato. How did we get to Socrates
ALIZARIN: Well Plato doesn\u2019t write as himself.
CAPRI: He what?
ALIZARIN: Plato writes as Socrates and has Socrates do all the talking
CAPRI: Didn\u2019t Socrates commit suicide somewhere in there with hemlock or something?
ALIZARIN: Yes, he was on trial and chose to take his own life.
CAPRI: So let me get this straight. Plato is writing as Socrates, who has been dead for awhile at least, and has Socrates argue that copies of copies are further from the truth?!?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: Isn\u2019t Socrates a copy of a copy?
ALIZARIN: Huh?
CAPRI: Well Plato’s Socrates is a copy of the original Socrates right?
ALIZARIN: I guess.
CAPRI: Plato is not copying Socrates word for word as he spoke right?
ALIZARIN: No.
CAPRI: And what\u2019s this about talking? Aren\u2019t you reading his work?
ALIZARIN: Yes. its written down but it\u2019s a dialogue, thats why its called Platonic Dialogue.
CAPRI: So Plato is creating a copy of Socrates to speak in a copy of a dialogue?
ALIZARIN: Apparently.
CAPRI: Well then Plato can\u2019t mean exactly what he means then.
ALIZARIN: ???
CAPRI: If he really said copies of copies are further from the truth then he would be about as far away as possible.
ALIZARIN: I have read all that there is in the stupid book, I haven\u2019t seen anything to indicate the man was mad.
CAPRI: Which book?
ALIZARIN: The Norton Anthology. It has the Republic in it which is where this is from.
CAPRI: Does it have all of it?
ALIZARIN: Well no, it has parts. The Republic is too long to include all of it.
CAPRI: So you\u2019re saying Plato is calling you a liar and wants to banish you based on you reading half of his thoughts?
ALIZARIN: There is actually less than half.
CAPRI: Less than half!?!
ALIZARIN: Yes, but Plato lays out three types, the progenitor, the manufacturer, and a representer. Each further away from the truth and I am a representer of a representer!
CAPRI: So what\u2019s the difference between a manufacturer and a representer?
ALIZARIN: A manufacturer makes replicas or copies of the original.
CAPRI: So he or she makes a copy of something?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: But then why is the representer a representer and not a manufacturer?
ALIZARIN: Because a representer designs something based on appearance of the copy rather than the true original.
CAPRI: Who says?
ALIZARIN: Plato obviously.
CAPRI: Why can\u2019t a representer represent the truth?
ALIZARIN: Its like that painting we were talking about earlier. The painter paints something based on how it appears not how it actually is in reality.
CAPRI: How it appears or should appear?
ALIZARIN: Both I guess.
CAPRI: Well the two are quite different.
ALIZARIN: How so?
CAPRI: Appearances are deceiving, obviously, but if the painter paints what it should be then it is nearer to the truth than, or at least equal to the copy itself.
ALIZARIN: Only if the painter actually knows what it should be rather than what they think it should be.
CAPRI: Good point.
ALIZARIN: Thank you. I\u2019m not a liar then, just delusional.
CAPRI: Well we already established that last time\u2014your delusional by proximity.
ALIZARIN: Apparently.
CAPRI: But why would we think that the painter didn\u2019t know what the truth was?
ALIZARIN: Plato says that, and I quote, \u201cas far as goodness and badness are concerned, then a representer doesn\u2019t have either knowledge or true beliefs about whatever it is he is representing.\u201d
CAPRI: I didn\u2019t know Plato spoke English
ALIZARIN: Ha Ha, It\u2019s a translation.
CAPRI: But why does a painter not know the truth?
ALIZARIN: Because the painter does not spend time making use of the object he is painting and thus has no knowledge and he does not spend time with a knowledgeable person so he can have justifiable confidence that what he is making is accurate.
CAPRI: Who says?
ALIZARIN: Why do keep asking that?
CAPRI: Because it sounds like a very weak argument.
ALIZARIN: Seems clear to me.
CAPRI: First, painters paint what they see, don\u2019t they?
ALIZARIN: Naturally.
CAPRI: Obviously they make use of whats around them then?
ALIZARIN: Yes, I guess.
CAPRI: So how could they have no knowledge of it? Obviously, they have at least touched it.
ALIZARIN: But that doesn\u2019t count, they have to make it.
CAPRI: They have to manufacture a copy in order to be considered knowledgeable?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: Well then you would be knowledgeable.
ALIZARIN: That doesn\u2019t seem to fit.
CAPRI: How so?
ALIZARIN: I don\u2019t know.
CAPRI: And a painter, even a poor painter, has to learn from someone don\u2019t they?
ALIZARIN: Well they could learn on their own. Trial and Error.
CAPRI: True, but then they would be knowledgeable.
ALIZARIN: I suppose.
CAPRI: And if they learned from someone, wouldn\u2019t they have the justifiable confidence that their representation was accurate?
ALIZARIN: Yes, I really can\u2019t argue that. But still they are only representing a facet of the true object not the complete object.
CAPRI: What happens if the painter tries to truly represent more than one facet?
ALIZARIN: I don\u2019t understand.
CAPRI: What if the painter tries for 2 facets or 3?
ALIZARIN: They can\u2019t do that.
CAPRI: Why not?
ALIZARIN: Because its a flat surface. They can make it appear 3D but only from one point.
CAPRI: But what about our Dove With Green Peas?
ALIZARIN: What about it?
CAPRI: It\u2019s a bit abstract, wouldn\u2019t you say?
ALIZARIN: Well technically it\u2019s cubism.
CAPRI: Oh? What makes the painting cubist?
ALIZARIN: The cubes of course!
CAPRI: LOL and here I thought I was the one with the limited education
ALIZARIN: Ok, so its multifaceted, it portrays a plurality of viewpoints in a two dimensional space.
CAPRI: You used Wikipedia for that didn\u2019t you?
ALIZARIN: I have no idea what your talking about
CAPRI: No, of course not.
ALIZARIN: I don\u2019t.
CAPRI: But you would say if a painting can be multifaceted, so can words?
ALIZARIN: A word can have multiple meanings.
CAPRI: So could a sentence, made up of multiple words with multiple meanings, represent the true entirety of an idea?
ALIZARIN: If it were a perfect sentence.
CAPRI: Those are hard to come by I suppose.
ALIZARIN: That\u2019s an understatement.
CAPRI: Why?
ALIZARIN: Next time I have my students turn in a paper, I\u2019ll have you grade them.
CAPRI: I think I\u2019ll pass on that
ALIZARIN: Maybe next time?
CAPRI: Maybe.
ALIZARIN: Well its getting late, better head to bed.
CAPRI: Yes, you don\u2019t want to teach your kids when your half dead
ALIZARIN: Nope.
CAPRI: Night.
ALIZARIN: Buenos Noches<\/p>\n\n\n\n
ALIZARIN: Well now he wants to banish me. I have a right to be bitter!
CAPRI: Why does he want to banish you?
ALIZARIN: Remember the great chain for craziness?
CAPRI: The one from before?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: K.
ALIZARIN: As a representer of a representer anything I write deforms people’s minds and takes them further from the truth.
CAPRI: DNC.
ALIZARIN: A painter or a poet can only make a copy of a copy and there is no truth in their work.
CAPRI: Well you\u2019re not really a poet or a painter are you?
ALIZARIN: I CAN PAINT!
CAPRI: Ok, so you can paint, BUT you do that as a hobby. What does this have to do with you being a critic?
ALIZARIN: Don\u2019t you see?!?
CAPRI: No. Enlighten me.
ALIZARIN: A critic is even further removed!
CAPRI: Huh?
ALIZARIN: Pretend you have one of Picasso\u2019s paintings.
CAPRI: Now you do sound crazy.
ALIZARIN: I AM NOT!
CAPRI: Ok. Ok, just let go of the shift key.
ALIZARIN: fine.
CAPRI: Good, so I have a Picasso. What Picasso do I have?
ALIZARIN: It doesn\u2019t matter.
CAPRI: Well how am I suppose to imagine this if I don\u2019t know what to imagine?
ALIZARIN: Your as irritating as he <\/em>is sometimes.
CAPRI: I try \ud83d\ude09
ALIZARIN: Ok so you have Picasso\u2019s Dove With Green Peas.
CAPRI: I do not. I\u2019m not a thief.
ALIZARIN: What?
CAPRI: Don\u2019t you read the news?
ALIZARIN: Does it look like I have time to do that?
CAPRI: That painting was stolen.
ALIZARIN: Oh. Well how do I know you don\u2019t have it?
CAPRI: Because I\u2019ve never been to Paris.
ALIZARIN: How do I know that?
CAPRI: Are we questioning Plato here or me?
ALIZARIN: Plato.
CAPRI: Well I have my Picasso. Now what?
ALIZARIN: You make a million copies.
CAPRI: So now I\u2019m an art forger as well?
ALIZARIN: Sure, why not.
CAPRI: Ok…this is your imagination. I am a forger and make a million copies.
ALIZARIN: And someone buys a copy.
CAPRI: For how much?
ALIZARIN: I don\u2019t know, whatever you want for it.
CAPRI: Sounds like a plan, I don\u2019t know what I would do with a million of anything anyways.
ALIZARIN: Can we focus here!
CAPRI: K
ALIZARIN: And that person that bought your copy is also a forger and thinks your copy is the original.
CAPRI: K. Sucks to be him.
ALIZARIN: How do you know it is a him?
CAPRI: I don\u2019t, I\u2019m just saying…besides its my imagination!
ALIZARIN: Ok. So HE makes a million copies of your copy.
CAPRI: Alright.
ALIZARIN: So which copy is closer to the truth?
CAPRI: Mine.
ALIZARIN: There you go. Socrates claimed the further you get away from an original the less authentic it is because your not creating the actual painting but the appearance of the painting.
CAPRI: Wait a minute.
ALIZARIN: What?
CAPRI: We were talking about Plato. How did we get to Socrates
ALIZARIN: Well Plato doesn\u2019t write as himself.
CAPRI: He what?
ALIZARIN: Plato writes as Socrates and has Socrates do all the talking
CAPRI: Didn\u2019t Socrates commit suicide somewhere in there with hemlock or something?
ALIZARIN: Yes, he was on trial and chose to take his own life.
CAPRI: So let me get this straight. Plato is writing as Socrates, who has been dead for awhile at least, and has Socrates argue that copies of copies are further from the truth?!?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: Isn\u2019t Socrates a copy of a copy?
ALIZARIN: Huh?
CAPRI: Well Plato’s Socrates is a copy of the original Socrates right?
ALIZARIN: I guess.
CAPRI: Plato is not copying Socrates word for word as he spoke right?
ALIZARIN: No.
CAPRI: And what\u2019s this about talking? Aren\u2019t you reading his work?
ALIZARIN: Yes. its written down but it\u2019s a dialogue, thats why its called Platonic Dialogue.
CAPRI: So Plato is creating a copy of Socrates to speak in a copy of a dialogue?
ALIZARIN: Apparently.
CAPRI: Well then Plato can\u2019t mean exactly what he means then.
ALIZARIN: ???
CAPRI: If he really said copies of copies are further from the truth then he would be about as far away as possible.
ALIZARIN: I have read all that there is in the stupid book, I haven\u2019t seen anything to indicate the man was mad.
CAPRI: Which book?
ALIZARIN: The Norton Anthology. It has the Republic in it which is where this is from.
CAPRI: Does it have all of it?
ALIZARIN: Well no, it has parts. The Republic is too long to include all of it.
CAPRI: So you\u2019re saying Plato is calling you a liar and wants to banish you based on you reading half of his thoughts?
ALIZARIN: There is actually less than half.
CAPRI: Less than half!?!
ALIZARIN: Yes, but Plato lays out three types, the progenitor, the manufacturer, and a representer. Each further away from the truth and I am a representer of a representer!
CAPRI: So what\u2019s the difference between a manufacturer and a representer?
ALIZARIN: A manufacturer makes replicas or copies of the original.
CAPRI: So he or she makes a copy of something?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: But then why is the representer a representer and not a manufacturer?
ALIZARIN: Because a representer designs something based on appearance of the copy rather than the true original.
CAPRI: Who says?
ALIZARIN: Plato obviously.
CAPRI: Why can\u2019t a representer represent the truth?
ALIZARIN: Its like that painting we were talking about earlier. The painter paints something based on how it appears not how it actually is in reality.
CAPRI: How it appears or should appear?
ALIZARIN: Both I guess.
CAPRI: Well the two are quite different.
ALIZARIN: How so?
CAPRI: Appearances are deceiving, obviously, but if the painter paints what it should be then it is nearer to the truth than, or at least equal to the copy itself.
ALIZARIN: Only if the painter actually knows what it should be rather than what they think it should be.
CAPRI: Good point.
ALIZARIN: Thank you. I\u2019m not a liar then, just delusional.
CAPRI: Well we already established that last time\u2014your delusional by proximity.
ALIZARIN: Apparently.
CAPRI: But why would we think that the painter didn\u2019t know what the truth was?
ALIZARIN: Plato says that, and I quote, \u201cas far as goodness and badness are concerned, then a representer doesn\u2019t have either knowledge or true beliefs about whatever it is he is representing.\u201d
CAPRI: I didn\u2019t know Plato spoke English
ALIZARIN: Ha Ha, It\u2019s a translation.
CAPRI: But why does a painter not know the truth?
ALIZARIN: Because the painter does not spend time making use of the object he is painting and thus has no knowledge and he does not spend time with a knowledgeable person so he can have justifiable confidence that what he is making is accurate.
CAPRI: Who says?
ALIZARIN: Why do keep asking that?
CAPRI: Because it sounds like a very weak argument.
ALIZARIN: Seems clear to me.
CAPRI: First, painters paint what they see, don\u2019t they?
ALIZARIN: Naturally.
CAPRI: Obviously they make use of whats around them then?
ALIZARIN: Yes, I guess.
CAPRI: So how could they have no knowledge of it? Obviously, they have at least touched it.
ALIZARIN: But that doesn\u2019t count, they have to make it.
CAPRI: They have to manufacture a copy in order to be considered knowledgeable?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: Well then you would be knowledgeable.
ALIZARIN: That doesn\u2019t seem to fit.
CAPRI: How so?
ALIZARIN: I don\u2019t know.
CAPRI: And a painter, even a poor painter, has to learn from someone don\u2019t they?
ALIZARIN: Well they could learn on their own. Trial and Error.
CAPRI: True, but then they would be knowledgeable.
ALIZARIN: I suppose.
CAPRI: And if they learned from someone, wouldn\u2019t they have the justifiable confidence that their representation was accurate?
ALIZARIN: Yes, I really can\u2019t argue that. But still they are only representing a facet of the true object not the complete object.
CAPRI: What happens if the painter tries to truly represent more than one facet?
ALIZARIN: I don\u2019t understand.
CAPRI: What if the painter tries for 2 facets or 3?
ALIZARIN: They can\u2019t do that.
CAPRI: Why not?
ALIZARIN: Because its a flat surface. They can make it appear 3D but only from one point.
CAPRI: But what about our Dove With Green Peas?
ALIZARIN: What about it?
CAPRI: It\u2019s a bit abstract, wouldn\u2019t you say?
ALIZARIN: Well technically it\u2019s cubism.
CAPRI: Oh? What makes the painting cubist?
ALIZARIN: The cubes of course!
CAPRI: LOL and here I thought I was the one with the limited education
ALIZARIN: Ok, so its multifaceted, it portrays a plurality of viewpoints in a two dimensional space.
CAPRI: You used Wikipedia for that didn\u2019t you?
ALIZARIN: I have no idea what your talking about
CAPRI: No, of course not.
ALIZARIN: I don\u2019t.
CAPRI: But you would say if a painting can be multifaceted, so can words?
ALIZARIN: A word can have multiple meanings.
CAPRI: So could a sentence, made up of multiple words with multiple meanings, represent the true entirety of an idea?
ALIZARIN: If it were a perfect sentence.
CAPRI: Those are hard to come by I suppose.
ALIZARIN: That\u2019s an understatement.
CAPRI: Why?
ALIZARIN: Next time I have my students turn in a paper, I\u2019ll have you grade them.
CAPRI: I think I\u2019ll pass on that
ALIZARIN: Maybe next time?
CAPRI: Maybe.
ALIZARIN: Well its getting late, better head to bed.
CAPRI: Yes, you don\u2019t want to teach your kids when your half dead
ALIZARIN: Nope.
CAPRI: Night.
ALIZARIN: Buenos Noches<\/p>\n\n\n\n