One should always finish what one starts. So, presented before you is a bit more Platonic conversation. Here is the rest of the argument in all its silliness! I say “silliness” because it is neither good nor sensical, it just is what it is: boredom at its finest. Take heed lest you too fall into the absurd abyss of endless shadows upon a cave wall.
CONVERSATION: On Republic*
DATE: 12/21/2009
DURATION: 9:34:26 PM to 11:43:52 PM PST
ALIZARIN: And now I’m a liar too!
CAPRI: Come again???
ALIZARIN: Oh and I know nothing of value!
CAPRI: What are you talking about?
ALIZARIN: Oh the nerve of that man!
CAPRI: Which man?!?
ALIZARIN: Plato.
CAPRI: You’re still bitter?
ALIZARIN: Well now he wants to banish me. I have a right to be bitter!
CAPRI: Why does he want to banish you?
ALIZARIN: Remember the great chain for craziness?
CAPRI: The one from before?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: K.
ALIZARIN: As a representer of a representer anything I write deforms people’s minds and takes them further from the truth.
CAPRI: DNC.
ALIZARIN: A painter or a poet can only make a copy of a copy and there is no truth in their work.
CAPRI: Well you’re not really a poet or a painter are you?
ALIZARIN: I CAN PAINT!
CAPRI: Ok, so you can paint, BUT you do that as a hobby. What does this have to do with you being a critic?
ALIZARIN: Don’t you see?!?
CAPRI: No. Enlighten me.
ALIZARIN: A critic is even further removed!
CAPRI: Huh?
ALIZARIN: Pretend you have one of Picasso’s paintings.
CAPRI: Now you do sound crazy.
ALIZARIN: I AM NOT!
CAPRI: Ok. Ok, just let go of the shift key.
ALIZARIN: fine.
CAPRI: Good, so I have a Picasso. What Picasso do I have?
ALIZARIN: It doesn’t matter.
CAPRI: Well how am I suppose to imagine this if I don’t know what to imagine?
ALIZARIN: Your as irritating as he is sometimes.
CAPRI: I try 😉
ALIZARIN: Ok so you have Picasso’s Dove With Green Peas.
CAPRI: I do not. I’m not a thief.
ALIZARIN: What?
CAPRI: Don’t you read the news?
ALIZARIN: Does it look like I have time to do that?
CAPRI: That painting was stolen.
ALIZARIN: Oh. Well how do I know you don’t have it?
CAPRI: Because I’ve never been to Paris.
ALIZARIN: How do I know that?
CAPRI: Are we questioning Plato here or me?
ALIZARIN: Plato.
CAPRI: Well I have my Picasso. Now what?
ALIZARIN: You make a million copies.
CAPRI: So now I’m an art forger as well?
ALIZARIN: Sure, why not.
CAPRI: Ok…this is your imagination. I am a forger and make a million copies.
ALIZARIN: And someone buys a copy.
CAPRI: For how much?
ALIZARIN: I don’t know, whatever you want for it.
CAPRI: Sounds like a plan, I don’t know what I would do with a million of anything anyways.
ALIZARIN: Can we focus here!
CAPRI: K
ALIZARIN: And that person that bought your copy is also a forger and thinks your copy is the original.
CAPRI: K. Sucks to be him.
ALIZARIN: How do you know it is a him?
CAPRI: I don’t, I’m just saying…besides its my imagination!
ALIZARIN: Ok. So HE makes a million copies of your copy.
CAPRI: Alright.
ALIZARIN: So which copy is closer to the truth?
CAPRI: Mine.
ALIZARIN: There you go. Socrates claimed the further you get away from an original the less authentic it is because your not creating the actual painting but the appearance of the painting.
CAPRI: Wait a minute.
ALIZARIN: What?
CAPRI: We were talking about Plato. How did we get to Socrates
ALIZARIN: Well Plato doesn’t write as himself.
CAPRI: He what?
ALIZARIN: Plato writes as Socrates and has Socrates do all the talking
CAPRI: Didn’t Socrates commit suicide somewhere in there with hemlock or something?
ALIZARIN: Yes, he was on trial and chose to take his own life.
CAPRI: So let me get this straight. Plato is writing as Socrates, who has been dead for awhile at least, and has Socrates argue that copies of copies are further from the truth?!?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: Isn’t Socrates a copy of a copy?
ALIZARIN: Huh?
CAPRI: Well Plato’s Socrates is a copy of the original Socrates right?
ALIZARIN: I guess.
CAPRI: Plato is not copying Socrates word for word as he spoke right?
ALIZARIN: No.
CAPRI: And what’s this about talking? Aren’t you reading his work?
ALIZARIN: Yes. its written down but it’s a dialogue, thats why its called Platonic Dialogue.
CAPRI: So Plato is creating a copy of Socrates to speak in a copy of a dialogue?
ALIZARIN: Apparently.
CAPRI: Well then Plato can’t mean exactly what he means then.
ALIZARIN: ???
CAPRI: If he really said copies of copies are further from the truth then he would be about as far away as possible.
ALIZARIN: I have read all that there is in the stupid book, I haven’t seen anything to indicate the man was mad.
CAPRI: Which book?
ALIZARIN: The Norton Anthology. It has the Republic in it which is where this is from.
CAPRI: Does it have all of it?
ALIZARIN: Well no, it has parts. The Republic is too long to include all of it.
CAPRI: So you’re saying Plato is calling you a liar and wants to banish you based on you reading half of his thoughts?
ALIZARIN: There is actually less than half.
CAPRI: Less than half!?!
ALIZARIN: Yes, but Plato lays out three types, the progenitor, the manufacturer, and a representer. Each further away from the truth and I am a representer of a representer!
CAPRI: So what’s the difference between a manufacturer and a representer?
ALIZARIN: A manufacturer makes replicas or copies of the original.
CAPRI: So he or she makes a copy of something?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: But then why is the representer a representer and not a manufacturer?
ALIZARIN: Because a representer designs something based on appearance of the copy rather than the true original.
CAPRI: Who says?
ALIZARIN: Plato obviously.
CAPRI: Why can’t a representer represent the truth?
ALIZARIN: Its like that painting we were talking about earlier. The painter paints something based on how it appears not how it actually is in reality.
CAPRI: How it appears or should appear?
ALIZARIN: Both I guess.
CAPRI: Well the two are quite different.
ALIZARIN: How so?
CAPRI: Appearances are deceiving, obviously, but if the painter paints what it should be then it is nearer to the truth than, or at least equal to the copy itself.
ALIZARIN: Only if the painter actually knows what it should be rather than what they think it should be.
CAPRI: Good point.
ALIZARIN: Thank you. I’m not a liar then, just delusional.
CAPRI: Well we already established that last time—your delusional by proximity.
ALIZARIN: Apparently.
CAPRI: But why would we think that the painter didn’t know what the truth was?
ALIZARIN: Plato says that, and I quote, “as far as goodness and badness are concerned, then a representer doesn’t have either knowledge or true beliefs about whatever it is he is representing.”
CAPRI: I didn’t know Plato spoke English
ALIZARIN: Ha Ha, It’s a translation.
CAPRI: But why does a painter not know the truth?
ALIZARIN: Because the painter does not spend time making use of the object he is painting and thus has no knowledge and he does not spend time with a knowledgeable person so he can have justifiable confidence that what he is making is accurate.
CAPRI: Who says?
ALIZARIN: Why do keep asking that?
CAPRI: Because it sounds like a very weak argument.
ALIZARIN: Seems clear to me.
CAPRI: First, painters paint what they see, don’t they?
ALIZARIN: Naturally.
CAPRI: Obviously they make use of whats around them then?
ALIZARIN: Yes, I guess.
CAPRI: So how could they have no knowledge of it? Obviously, they have at least touched it.
ALIZARIN: But that doesn’t count, they have to make it.
CAPRI: They have to manufacture a copy in order to be considered knowledgeable?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: Well then you would be knowledgeable.
ALIZARIN: That doesn’t seem to fit.
CAPRI: How so?
ALIZARIN: I don’t know.
CAPRI: And a painter, even a poor painter, has to learn from someone don’t they?
ALIZARIN: Well they could learn on their own. Trial and Error.
CAPRI: True, but then they would be knowledgeable.
ALIZARIN: I suppose.
CAPRI: And if they learned from someone, wouldn’t they have the justifiable confidence that their representation was accurate?
ALIZARIN: Yes, I really can’t argue that. But still they are only representing a facet of the true object not the complete object.
CAPRI: What happens if the painter tries to truly represent more than one facet?
ALIZARIN: I don’t understand.
CAPRI: What if the painter tries for 2 facets or 3?
ALIZARIN: They can’t do that.
CAPRI: Why not?
ALIZARIN: Because its a flat surface. They can make it appear 3D but only from one point.
CAPRI: But what about our Dove With Green Peas?
ALIZARIN: What about it?
CAPRI: It’s a bit abstract, wouldn’t you say?
ALIZARIN: Well technically it’s cubism.
CAPRI: Oh? What makes the painting cubist?
ALIZARIN: The cubes of course!
CAPRI: LOL and here I thought I was the one with the limited education
ALIZARIN: Ok, so its multifaceted, it portrays a plurality of viewpoints in a two dimensional space.
CAPRI: You used Wikipedia for that didn’t you?
ALIZARIN: I have no idea what your talking about
CAPRI: No, of course not.
ALIZARIN: I don’t.
CAPRI: But you would say if a painting can be multifaceted, so can words?
ALIZARIN: A word can have multiple meanings.
CAPRI: So could a sentence, made up of multiple words with multiple meanings, represent the true entirety of an idea?
ALIZARIN: If it were a perfect sentence.
CAPRI: Those are hard to come by I suppose.
ALIZARIN: That’s an understatement.
CAPRI: Why?
ALIZARIN: Next time I have my students turn in a paper, I’ll have you grade them.
CAPRI: I think I’ll pass on that
ALIZARIN: Maybe next time?
CAPRI: Maybe.
ALIZARIN: Well its getting late, better head to bed.
CAPRI: Yes, you don’t want to teach your kids when your half dead
ALIZARIN: Nope.
CAPRI: Night.
ALIZARIN: Buenos Noches
CAPRI: You’re still bitter?
ALIZARIN: Well now he wants to banish me. I have a right to be bitter!
CAPRI: Why does he want to banish you?
ALIZARIN: Remember the great chain for craziness?
CAPRI: The one from before?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: K.
ALIZARIN: As a representer of a representer anything I write deforms people’s minds and takes them further from the truth.
CAPRI: DNC.
ALIZARIN: A painter or a poet can only make a copy of a copy and there is no truth in their work.
CAPRI: Well you’re not really a poet or a painter are you?
ALIZARIN: I CAN PAINT!
CAPRI: Ok, so you can paint, BUT you do that as a hobby. What does this have to do with you being a critic?
ALIZARIN: Don’t you see?!?
CAPRI: No. Enlighten me.
ALIZARIN: A critic is even further removed!
CAPRI: Huh?
ALIZARIN: Pretend you have one of Picasso’s paintings.
CAPRI: Now you do sound crazy.
ALIZARIN: I AM NOT!
CAPRI: Ok. Ok, just let go of the shift key.
ALIZARIN: fine.
CAPRI: Good, so I have a Picasso. What Picasso do I have?
ALIZARIN: It doesn’t matter.
CAPRI: Well how am I suppose to imagine this if I don’t know what to imagine?
ALIZARIN: Your as irritating as he is sometimes.
CAPRI: I try 😉
ALIZARIN: Ok so you have Picasso’s Dove With Green Peas.
CAPRI: I do not. I’m not a thief.
ALIZARIN: What?
CAPRI: Don’t you read the news?
ALIZARIN: Does it look like I have time to do that?
CAPRI: That painting was stolen.
ALIZARIN: Oh. Well how do I know you don’t have it?
CAPRI: Because I’ve never been to Paris.
ALIZARIN: How do I know that?
CAPRI: Are we questioning Plato here or me?
ALIZARIN: Plato.
CAPRI: Well I have my Picasso. Now what?
ALIZARIN: You make a million copies.
CAPRI: So now I’m an art forger as well?
ALIZARIN: Sure, why not.
CAPRI: Ok…this is your imagination. I am a forger and make a million copies.
ALIZARIN: And someone buys a copy.
CAPRI: For how much?
ALIZARIN: I don’t know, whatever you want for it.
CAPRI: Sounds like a plan, I don’t know what I would do with a million of anything anyways.
ALIZARIN: Can we focus here!
CAPRI: K
ALIZARIN: And that person that bought your copy is also a forger and thinks your copy is the original.
CAPRI: K. Sucks to be him.
ALIZARIN: How do you know it is a him?
CAPRI: I don’t, I’m just saying…besides its my imagination!
ALIZARIN: Ok. So HE makes a million copies of your copy.
CAPRI: Alright.
ALIZARIN: So which copy is closer to the truth?
CAPRI: Mine.
ALIZARIN: There you go. Socrates claimed the further you get away from an original the less authentic it is because your not creating the actual painting but the appearance of the painting.
CAPRI: Wait a minute.
ALIZARIN: What?
CAPRI: We were talking about Plato. How did we get to Socrates
ALIZARIN: Well Plato doesn’t write as himself.
CAPRI: He what?
ALIZARIN: Plato writes as Socrates and has Socrates do all the talking
CAPRI: Didn’t Socrates commit suicide somewhere in there with hemlock or something?
ALIZARIN: Yes, he was on trial and chose to take his own life.
CAPRI: So let me get this straight. Plato is writing as Socrates, who has been dead for awhile at least, and has Socrates argue that copies of copies are further from the truth?!?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: Isn’t Socrates a copy of a copy?
ALIZARIN: Huh?
CAPRI: Well Plato’s Socrates is a copy of the original Socrates right?
ALIZARIN: I guess.
CAPRI: Plato is not copying Socrates word for word as he spoke right?
ALIZARIN: No.
CAPRI: And what’s this about talking? Aren’t you reading his work?
ALIZARIN: Yes. its written down but it’s a dialogue, thats why its called Platonic Dialogue.
CAPRI: So Plato is creating a copy of Socrates to speak in a copy of a dialogue?
ALIZARIN: Apparently.
CAPRI: Well then Plato can’t mean exactly what he means then.
ALIZARIN: ???
CAPRI: If he really said copies of copies are further from the truth then he would be about as far away as possible.
ALIZARIN: I have read all that there is in the stupid book, I haven’t seen anything to indicate the man was mad.
CAPRI: Which book?
ALIZARIN: The Norton Anthology. It has the Republic in it which is where this is from.
CAPRI: Does it have all of it?
ALIZARIN: Well no, it has parts. The Republic is too long to include all of it.
CAPRI: So you’re saying Plato is calling you a liar and wants to banish you based on you reading half of his thoughts?
ALIZARIN: There is actually less than half.
CAPRI: Less than half!?!
ALIZARIN: Yes, but Plato lays out three types, the progenitor, the manufacturer, and a representer. Each further away from the truth and I am a representer of a representer!
CAPRI: So what’s the difference between a manufacturer and a representer?
ALIZARIN: A manufacturer makes replicas or copies of the original.
CAPRI: So he or she makes a copy of something?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: But then why is the representer a representer and not a manufacturer?
ALIZARIN: Because a representer designs something based on appearance of the copy rather than the true original.
CAPRI: Who says?
ALIZARIN: Plato obviously.
CAPRI: Why can’t a representer represent the truth?
ALIZARIN: Its like that painting we were talking about earlier. The painter paints something based on how it appears not how it actually is in reality.
CAPRI: How it appears or should appear?
ALIZARIN: Both I guess.
CAPRI: Well the two are quite different.
ALIZARIN: How so?
CAPRI: Appearances are deceiving, obviously, but if the painter paints what it should be then it is nearer to the truth than, or at least equal to the copy itself.
ALIZARIN: Only if the painter actually knows what it should be rather than what they think it should be.
CAPRI: Good point.
ALIZARIN: Thank you. I’m not a liar then, just delusional.
CAPRI: Well we already established that last time—your delusional by proximity.
ALIZARIN: Apparently.
CAPRI: But why would we think that the painter didn’t know what the truth was?
ALIZARIN: Plato says that, and I quote, “as far as goodness and badness are concerned, then a representer doesn’t have either knowledge or true beliefs about whatever it is he is representing.”
CAPRI: I didn’t know Plato spoke English
ALIZARIN: Ha Ha, It’s a translation.
CAPRI: But why does a painter not know the truth?
ALIZARIN: Because the painter does not spend time making use of the object he is painting and thus has no knowledge and he does not spend time with a knowledgeable person so he can have justifiable confidence that what he is making is accurate.
CAPRI: Who says?
ALIZARIN: Why do keep asking that?
CAPRI: Because it sounds like a very weak argument.
ALIZARIN: Seems clear to me.
CAPRI: First, painters paint what they see, don’t they?
ALIZARIN: Naturally.
CAPRI: Obviously they make use of whats around them then?
ALIZARIN: Yes, I guess.
CAPRI: So how could they have no knowledge of it? Obviously, they have at least touched it.
ALIZARIN: But that doesn’t count, they have to make it.
CAPRI: They have to manufacture a copy in order to be considered knowledgeable?
ALIZARIN: Yes.
CAPRI: Well then you would be knowledgeable.
ALIZARIN: That doesn’t seem to fit.
CAPRI: How so?
ALIZARIN: I don’t know.
CAPRI: And a painter, even a poor painter, has to learn from someone don’t they?
ALIZARIN: Well they could learn on their own. Trial and Error.
CAPRI: True, but then they would be knowledgeable.
ALIZARIN: I suppose.
CAPRI: And if they learned from someone, wouldn’t they have the justifiable confidence that their representation was accurate?
ALIZARIN: Yes, I really can’t argue that. But still they are only representing a facet of the true object not the complete object.
CAPRI: What happens if the painter tries to truly represent more than one facet?
ALIZARIN: I don’t understand.
CAPRI: What if the painter tries for 2 facets or 3?
ALIZARIN: They can’t do that.
CAPRI: Why not?
ALIZARIN: Because its a flat surface. They can make it appear 3D but only from one point.
CAPRI: But what about our Dove With Green Peas?
ALIZARIN: What about it?
CAPRI: It’s a bit abstract, wouldn’t you say?
ALIZARIN: Well technically it’s cubism.
CAPRI: Oh? What makes the painting cubist?
ALIZARIN: The cubes of course!
CAPRI: LOL and here I thought I was the one with the limited education
ALIZARIN: Ok, so its multifaceted, it portrays a plurality of viewpoints in a two dimensional space.
CAPRI: You used Wikipedia for that didn’t you?
ALIZARIN: I have no idea what your talking about
CAPRI: No, of course not.
ALIZARIN: I don’t.
CAPRI: But you would say if a painting can be multifaceted, so can words?
ALIZARIN: A word can have multiple meanings.
CAPRI: So could a sentence, made up of multiple words with multiple meanings, represent the true entirety of an idea?
ALIZARIN: If it were a perfect sentence.
CAPRI: Those are hard to come by I suppose.
ALIZARIN: That’s an understatement.
CAPRI: Why?
ALIZARIN: Next time I have my students turn in a paper, I’ll have you grade them.
CAPRI: I think I’ll pass on that
ALIZARIN: Maybe next time?
CAPRI: Maybe.
ALIZARIN: Well its getting late, better head to bed.
CAPRI: Yes, you don’t want to teach your kids when your half dead
ALIZARIN: Nope.
CAPRI: Night.
ALIZARIN: Buenos Noches
*Could not be edited for complete clarity.
Disclaimer: This conversation is not a verbatim transcript of a discussion. The text in this document records the notes and recollections of the writers to the best of their ability as they attempted to systematically strip away the multifaceted nature of reality. It’s sole purpose is to memorialize the conversation in written form as a conversation that may have taken place.